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Islam, Judaism, and Christianity - A Conversation

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  1. Now, it's my pleasure to introduce our moderator, the Reverend Amy Heller. Mother Amy is the senior chaplain at the Episcopal School of Dallas and served as
  2. associate rector of Church of the Transfiguration, chaplain to the school at Parish Episcopal, and I first met Amy when she was here as an associate for
  3. adult formation. We're fortunate to have her back with us tonight. Please welcome the Reverend Amy Heller.
  4. Thank you. Thank you. It's a delight to welcome you all to St. Michael and All Angels and
  5. before I introduce our panelists, let us be and share a moment be in prayer and share a moment of quiet as we gather our thoughts together to build community in
  6. this evening we share. Let us pray. Loving God, we thank you for the gift of our human family and our ability to bear
  7. your image to one another. We thank you for our individuality and our shared holiness that moves in and through us into our world.
  8. Tonight in our time together, may our hearts and minds be open to listening to one another and to a renewed understanding of the
  9. many ways your holy people live their faith in you. Bless us with a holy curiosity, a heart of compassion,
  10. and a sense of shared life. To you, oh Lord, be all honor and praise this night and always. Amen.
  11. Well, it's a wonderful to welcome our panelists this evening beginning to my right, Rabbi
  12. David Stern, Chief Rabbi at Temple Emanuel here in Dallas, in center Imam Omar Suleiman, director of the Islamic Learning
  13. Foundation of Texas and resident scholar at Valley Ranch Islamic Center, and at the far right Reverend Dr. Chris Gerada rector here at St. Michael and All
  14. Angels. It's um fun for me to learn that they are getting to know one another and building
  15. their collegial relationships with one another and so we really have an evening ahead of us of listening in on their conversations as they grow in um
  16. friendship and fellowship with one another in the different uh ways that they serve faith communities in our shared city.
  17. So as we begin I have an opening question for you all. The question is this, what is a commonly held misconception of your tradition?
  18. And what would you like us to know? About that commonly mis- misheld conception and we'll go from there.
  19. I would never presume to answer first. I'm in the St. Michael. I thought that was your answer.
  20. Um Commonly held misconception.
  21. Um I would say commonly held misconception might be
  22. that the Jewish community is in some way monolithic. Um in either it's political or spiritual
  23. attitudes. And uh as any Jew will tell you that the joke that Jews we Jews like to tell about ourselves is uh two Jews, three opinions.
  24. Um which is not only a joke but sort of an ethos Mhm. that Judaism is built on a spirit of argument
  25. and multiplication of ideas. So, I would say any impression of the Jewish community that veers towards the monolithic is probably missing something
  26. central about who we are and how we roll. Thank you. I don't think anyone has any
  27. misconceptions. Media does a great job of representing us.
  28. Where do I start? Did I just list them? Sort of bullet points. Um there is less than, you know, we make up
  29. less than 1% of the population here in the United States and we have not secretly launched a takeover of the country.
  30. Um we're not trying to replace the Constitution with Sharia law. We don't want to kill everybody. Um
  31. we're just as curious as to where ISIS came from as everybody else is. Um we don't oppress uh women in our
  32. tradition or our tradition is not one that I I'll I'll use that one. Okay. Uh that's that's the that's the one. That's that's that's the one I'll focus
  33. on just for a moment. And I think it plays into a larger narrative that Islam is a cause of destruction and regression.
  34. And I'd like people to just take a moment to consider that we are a 1,400 year old religion and that within Islam you had the birth
  35. of hospitals and medicine. The first university in the world was founded by a Muslim woman. Um
  36. our country here in the United States has yet to elect a woman president. The largest Muslim country in the world, does anyone know what the largest Muslim
  37. country in the world is? Indonesia. Has already had two female uh prime ministers.
  38. So, um associating Islam with regression, particularly the oppression of women and holding women back where some of the greatest female scholarship
  39. has been produced from the Muslim world over the last 1400 years I think is very dishonest and disingenuous. So I think Islam being
  40. associated with regression and particularly within that regression the oppression of women. We'll talk about the other stuff later.
  41. Sure, that's great. Thank you. I probably say one of the common misconceptions would be that Christians
  42. are judgemental. That we seek only to convert or change anyone we meet.
  43. You know, I I have conversations all the time especially with those who don't belong to a faith community that they are afraid to show up at a church
  44. because they assume that we'll kind of get our claws in them and want to make sure that they change who they are in order to be the kind of
  45. person God wants them to be. And I think it's so much bigger than that. It's more of an invitational than it is um judgemental.
  46. It's a commonly misheld misconception I think of the faith. It's may not be a misconception of the people. Mhm.
  47. That's fair. That's fair. Fair? Fair enough. I I think again all the open-ended as to who wants
  48. to respond first but so wonderful question that came ahead of time from some of someone out here. Do we pray to the same God?
  49. It's good softball Amy. Yeah, I just thought I'd go there first. I love it. The illogical. So I mean
  50. I I I guess I'll start on this one that um the name Allah uh
  51. is actually the same name word that is used in the Arabic Bible. It's what Arab Christians, believe it or not, Arab Christians say Allahu Akbar. Yep.
  52. Um which means God is uh greater. So the the name Allah refers to what Jesus peace be upon him would have said refers to the same God of Moses may
  53. God's peace and blessings be upon him. And so we have a an understanding in our faith at least that we are not only are we calling upon the same God that Jews
  54. and Christians call upon but in fact the Quran says when you speak to when you speak to the people of the book there if you guys look up there was an
  55. interfaith initiative called a common word that was initiated a few years ago started between Muslims and Catholics and spread. It's based on a
  56. verse in the Quran which says say o people of the book which refers to the Jews and the Christians come to a common word that we worship
  57. our God and your God and our God is one. Your God and our God is one. So in Islam we have a very clear understanding that we are in fact calling upon the same God
  58. of Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad may peace and blessings be upon them all. Thank you Imam.
  59. I mean I would just echo to say that we all I think understand that our Abrahamic root is the same and although in every tradition not just the three
  60. defined here but as Rabbi Stern already said there are different branches within each of these groups that it's branches off of that same root and the way that
  61. we understand the creator may be different but that the creator is the same.
  62. I would echo that and and say that um it's probably an act of
  63. human hubris to put the master of all the universe in a definitional box of human creation.
  64. So, I would echo what my colleagues and friends have said by saying that it is in fact in some ways a uh
  65. violation of God's sovereignty to treat God's sovereignty to narrowly. Uh and
  66. that it's fundamental to my sense of faith to say that there is one God that we find different paths to, that we have different expressions of,
  67. um that change within our own traditions over time, that are different in any one moment across a society, uh and it seems to me fundamental to a
  68. monotheistic conviction to say that of course we do. Mhm. Okay, well, keeping in that vein and maybe we're going to we're going to
  69. wander through history a little bit. Um why is it that um each of the religions that you serve and that we are part of um
  70. focus on differences and not similarities? I answered first the last time. Yeah, it's Chris's turn to go first,
  71. actually. I think it's human nature to try and define yourself by saying what someone
  72. else is or is not. Mhm. That that's that's normal, natural. I think that it's not perhaps the most mature way to do it,
  73. but very understandable. And so, I think over time it has we think within Christian denominations, right? So, so many, hundreds and hundreds.
  74. Every time a church splits, it's because someone thinks that they know something right that the other people do not know.
  75. Or they believe that they can somehow agree on stuff that this other group cannot agree on. And I think, you know, it's difficult to
  76. ever say, if your starting place is that we're all going to agree on everything, I think you sort of fail at the start. Um
  77. to kind of link back to what we've already discussed, I always feel like God is always bigger than anything we can ever understand.
  78. That our task is to try, and it's that effort to try that helps shape us over time. But to presume that we have figured out that God is this box is is
  79. just a fallacy. I um I treasure difference.
  80. Treasure distinctiveness the same way I'd want my children to treasure distinctiveness and not have to blend into some great homogenized
  81. whole. Um I think the challenge is to affirm difference without letting that
  82. difference lapse into hostility or antagonism. But seems to me that identity, either individually or communally, depends upon acts of
  83. distinction and I think strives for distinctiveness. So that doesn't doesn't mean we don't recognize commonality across those distinctions, but um
  84. I treasure You know, in the uh in in our faith tradition, we have a
  85. recognition of a few layers of brotherhood. So first, there is one of the early Islamic scholars uh Ghazali uh recognized a few different
  86. layers of brotherhood. So he said, first there's the Adamia, the the children of Adam, the brotherhood and sisterhood amongst the children of Adam, that there
  87. is a universal brotherhood that exists there. And then it becomes Ibrahimia, Abrahamic, that there is another closeness or distinction of Abrahamic
  88. brotherhood, those who who who who claim the father Abraham, peace be upon him. And then there is the
  89. brotherhood within Christ in Islam, and that Muslims also affirm a position, a unique distinction position of Jesus Christ, peace be upon him. And then
  90. there is Al-Muhammadia, which is the Muhammad, those who believe in the prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, affirming a brotherhood amongst
  91. themselves. But then it's really interesting because these obviously get closer and closer and closer, and there are differences even amongst the
  92. followers of the prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him. But the verse in the Quran, and every time I get asked what my politics are,
  93. I say that there's one verse in the Quran that sums up my politics. "Walakad karamna bani Adam." We have honored and dignified the child of Adam.
  94. And so the children of Adam are to be dignified. When there are political agendas at play,
  95. division is the tool of people in power to distract to distract you from from actually focusing on what's keeping society down.
  96. So division is a very it's very easy to point to someone who's different than you and say, "That's your problem, not me." And if you figure that problem out,
  97. then everything will suddenly disappear. And so in you know, I don't want to get too political here, not yet at least. I
  98. I want you guys to like me at least for the first 30 minutes. And cuz once I start getting too political, then it's
  99. But what I would say is that that's where that's where sectarianism, that's where division becomes ripe is when there is an agenda at play and there's
  100. something to be gained from dividing people. And it's just a simple question that we should ask, Who benefits from our division? Who benefits from
  101. this idea of a clash of civilizations? Um extremist groups here and abroad of different faiths and flavors all all uh you know are able to fester
  102. because of these this this idea that that civilizations are at constant in constant strife and that two groups of people cannot get along and so we have
  103. to always be in strife and always be fighting the others and that we don't actually rectify ourselves. And I'll follow that thread.
  104. We often talk about differences as problematic. And so when I've been to interfaith discussions
  105. like this or even interdenominational or ecumenical or anything like that, it does seem like there's a tendency to want to reduce things down to the most
  106. common denominator, right? So to try and go water it down and distill it down as far as we can so that we're all the same.
  107. Rather than acknowledging the differences and then seeking to understand them. And it's that lack of understanding of
  108. the differences that exist that I think actually causes a lot of the mistrust and the growth of hatred and perhaps even allows
  109. people like us to to allow, I suppose, that kind of hate and bigotry and intolerance to
  110. I hate to say thrive, but maybe. Well, I I do so I'll be political so you don't have to be so but I think the um part of the
  111. part of what the current cultural climate does, I think, is give disagreement a bad name. Um cuz difference and distinction means
  112. disagreement and disagreement again can be a very healthy engine And it's in a healthy society. Uh Omar and I you know, we we have lots of serious and deep
  113. conversations with one another as colleagues and friends and there are things we agree on clearly and there are things we disagree on clearly. Those
  114. disagreements are precious to me. They help me clarify my own thinking. They force me to develop empathy for the thinking of someone for whom I have
  115. boundless regard. And so I think that the problem is that now that everything is so toxic, we become afraid of disagreement. Right?
  116. And that's to our own detriment. And so I would echo what you're saying, Chris. I think that the the the lowest common denominator thing is
  117. not only misrepresentative and dull, it's dangerous because it it casts disagreement somehow as kryptonite and thereby limits our capacity to
  118. understand each other. Okay, so I want to be a little more personal and reflective for each of you for a moment. In your tradition and in
  119. your faith identity, what is the most beautiful or loving part of that that you value the most? Just in your personal identity as as your as the
  120. faith that you live. What is it that you say when I wake up in the morning, this is what I love about being who I am and the faith that I hold dear?
  121. You shall love the stranger for you were strangers in the land of Egypt. Can you say a little bit more for people?
  122. Yeah. I'm not the sound guy. Again, Rabbi Stern. If I had a church voice, I'd use it. I I
  123. You shall love the stranger for you were strangers in the land of Egypt. The reminder that the recognition of the dignity
  124. and the divinity inherent in the other is at the core of the Jewish covenant with God. Um, that is a source of pride and beauty
  125. to me. And as Chris said earlier, that doesn't mean um, there's always a difference between the doctrine and how it's enacted by
  126. complicated communities. That doesn't mean that we get it right um, all the time. I wouldn't even try to guess a percentage of the time that we get it
  127. right. But that is a horizon of decency and justice and holiness for me that I am um, that I feel blessed
  128. that it shines a light on my way. So, um, I would from at the theological level
  129. the I would say clarity. As as a as a Muslim there's there's great clarity in our theology
  130. as to who God is, what his attributes are. We begin everything that we do in the name of God the most compassionate, the most merciful. That's how we there
  131. there's a very relationship that we're able to develop with God. And so we call upon him in the name of God the most compassionate, the most merciful.
  132. There's also a connection um, to to a a multitude of prophets. So, I you
  133. know, I when when I speak to someone who is Jewish um, I learn as they are speaking about the
  134. Old Testament and some of the stories of the prophets that came before because in my tradition we affirm those prophets. And when we speak of of Jesus Christ,
  135. uh, peace be upon him, then I have then then I can relate to that. I take great interest in in who he was and what his mission was. And uh, and and have
  136. something to relate to there. So, there is a there's this there's a wholesome uh, theological clarity, but then at the societal level
  137. um, Islam has a a very clear social justice tradition. It's a liberation theology at its core.
  138. Uh, that's that that's what's made it appealing um, to many of the great civil rights leaders and activists that we that we
  139. that we've had and enjoyed in this country and elsewhere. There's a there's a great there's an explicit anti-racism tradition. The last sermon of the
  140. Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, was or the second sentence of that last sermon was that there's no superiority of a white man over a black man or of an
  141. Arab over a non-Arab. There's an explicit anti-racism tradition. There's an explicit tradition of treating people
  142. with dignity and with honor and with love and compassion even if they don't belong to your faith. So, there it's it's the how pristine those
  143. concepts are and we can find a lot of those concepts that are under you know they're at the core of our messages of loving the neighbor, do to others what
  144. you would want to be done to you. Those are things, but I'd say this that I often find that that a lot of the things that people
  145. think about Muslims are actually true about Christ, are true about Moses, are true about What I mean by that
  146. is that I think that the sanitizing of Christ, the sanitizing of Moses, the sanitizing of these great prophets you know, and and I say peace be upon
  147. them and it might annoy annoy you sometimes, but that we say that after the name of of the prophets and and and consistently
  148. that Jesus was a man that was radically devoted to justice. And I can appreciate that. And yes yes, there's turn the other cheek, but
  149. there's also there's also a a a Jesus that was angry when there was injustice and that spoke out against it. And I think that when you look at the prophets
  150. of God, they were not they were not pacifists in the sense that they did not take a passive attitude towards the injustice in their societies. They were
  151. not merely men of theology, but their theology transformed their societies and they were able to connect that to the vulnerable. And prophets
  152. were never popular with power structures. Mhm. So, That's true. you know, power structures always
  153. appropriate and commodify prophets, but they were never popular with power structures. And so, to me, that's what I can draw from, that explicit social
  154. justice tradition that's amplified in the lives of all of those prophets as they're told within the Islamic corpus. Mhm. Thank you.
  155. I think in for Christian different Christian groups, there are moments in the story of Christ that seem fundamental, like perhaps the
  156. number one most important. And that's perhaps shifted for me some in my life, but in my as an adult,
  157. what has meant most to me is the idea of the incarnation, right? When Christ was incarnate in the world, God came into the world present in this person of
  158. Jesus of Nazareth. There's so much that can be done with that idea, so much richness that we can understand about God's compassion and
  159. love and presence, faithfulness, but where I think that impacts me is in the social sense, that every person in this room,
  160. God's incarnation happens with each one of us in small ways, that we have God in us, right? That godness is something that comes in us,
  161. period. It's not something we can lose. And there are plenty of Christian traditions, I think, and theological ideas that sort of starts
  162. with we are bad and need to become good. And I think that there's plenty that says that we are good and lose our way.
  163. And that there's this constant return and turning and reconciliation that happens on our journey. And it's that turn and repentance over and over and
  164. over again because God's in us. And it's an inconvenient truth for me as a Christian that God is in every person.
  165. Because I don't like every person. And even the people who cut me off on the street or who yell at me or who do
  166. frustrating things or who hurt other people, you name it. God's still there somewhere. Could be so, so buried.
  167. But we're called to love God and love our neighbor. And we're called to love our neighbor because God's in there somewhere.
  168. And it's through the love that we share with one another that we help that kind of blossom and shine. That's great. You know, thank you all.
  169. Um as as we as I notice the time, I believe the women of St. Michael will be collecting those questions, so pass them to an end. I think this way. Um
  170. and then we'll have a second round of our questioning um in process. But we have plenty, plenty
  171. to talk about and wonder about together. Um I'm mindful of the fact that we are all people of books, one book, a holy book that is central to the story.
  172. Um and of course, how we read our sacred texts is very important. And so, um I'm just wondering sort of the approach,
  173. the literal approach, the metaphorical approach. How does each tradition speak to the reading of sacred texts, whether through worship or study? And how is
  174. that um how it might there be differences amongst uh the different faith traditions? Or even better to understand
  175. similarities. In the big Christian pantheon of denominations, there are so many answers
  176. to that question. Mhm. Um as an Anglican Christian, Episcopalian Anglican Christian,
  177. we root ourselves in scripture first, and then develop from scripture through our tradition,
  178. and then we welcome in the idea of reason. So, our actual experience, our faithful experience in the world, is meant to also inform how we live.
  179. So, scripture is central. It is the beginning. But, I think there are lots of Christians who have start from a place
  180. of literalism. And I will tell I tell my Bible studies and groups that I don't think that it's good to read the Bible literally. I
  181. would much prefer that you read it literately. Mhm. And that reading it literately is what most don't do, because most haven't actually read the
  182. whole thing. And it's not until you see how grand it really is
  183. that I think you can appreciate the complexity. It is just it's not possible to read our both the Old and New Testaments
  184. literally, because they literally contradicted themselves throughout the text, right? And so, that those kinds of specific contradictions are okay,
  185. so long as you are a literate reader and a faithful reader. I like to tell children when we give them copies of the Bible that it isn't a book,
  186. but it's really a library of books. And that you can't simply go front to back as if it's chapter one and chapter two of one nice novel.
  187. But instead it's this rich, incredible, poetic, and narrative, and historic collection of different stories that sort of turn the crystal of truth.
  188. And you can't just ever pick one verse and say that is everything. Although people do it all the time, right? You can find a verse in the Bible
  189. to defend pretty much anything. That's not a literate understanding. And so it's incumbent upon us to go at it
  190. as both intellectual, but also faithful. And to let it speak to us over time and to continue to read it all the time. But
  191. I'm going to guess that more Christians than not have never read the whole thing. And
  192. that's probably a good place to start. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. So there was a social experiment where you guys can look it up online. There's
  193. a person I I believe it was done in the Netherlands who uh took a copy of the Bible, but wrapped it with a cover of the Quran. Oh, I've seen
  194. that. You've seen that? He took it to the street and said, "Read this Read this verse from the Quran." And people would read it and go,
  195. "Oh my god, that's I can't believe it says that. They are They are who we thought they were." That's right.
  196. And then And he takes off the uh the wrapper and shows it's a Bible.
  197. And um so it's it's actually quite And this is So as Muslims we believe in the original format of those texts as they were
  198. revealed to their to the prophets. Again, we hold all of these uh people as prophets and and they were original revelations
  199. that over time different translations and different versions uh may have departed from the original text, but uh it's really interesting because um and
  200. and I'm just going to This is in defense of my faith and and and you know, David, you know how much I love you, so don't get offended by this, all right? But um
  201. if statistically speaking, if you take the verses of violence from the Old Testament, the New Testament, and the Quran
  202. the percentage of the Old Testament Don't get mad. I'm not mad. All right. Let's keep this Yeah. It's like 5.8%. The New Testament was 2.8, the Quran was
  203. 2.3. So, we're we're pretty, you know close there. But we win, you know WHAT I MEAN?
  204. BUT BUT IT'S IT'S IT'S INTERESTING to me because Islamophobes and extremists preach the exact same Islam. Yeah. I mean, I'm not going to lie, the
  205. president and and you know, some of those people of they they sound exactly like when they talk about my religion. I'm like, you guys should get in a room
  206. and talk about your Islam. And can you keep it somewhere and can we build a wall and keep you guys on one side so that
  207. the rest of the 1.8 billion Muslims in the world can keep practicing the way they've been practicing? The Quran
  208. is to us the word of God. It is uh it it is the literal word of God to us. So, it's it's a little different in that sense from a theo- theological
  209. perspective, the the role that the Quran plays in life of the Muslim. For 1,400 years, it's been preserved in
  210. its original text. There are no versions of the Quran. And Muslim Muslim throughout history have intentionally uh maintained the
  211. original recitation of the Quran in Arabic. And that's why though there are many translations of the Quran and it was translated into Persian
  212. by one of the companions of the Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him. Uh still there is this insistence, sort of like Syriac Christianity, right? The Persian
  213. Church in the 4th century and 5th century resided in you know, in Syriac to stay as close to the Aramaic of Christ, peace be upon
  214. him. So, there's this insistence on the originality of the text and maintaining the text and reading the text as it is and that's part of the beauty of it in
  215. that uniformity that you can have a child in in China or a child in Somalia and they're all reciting the exact same Quran. So, for
  216. 1400 years there's that consistency that's there with the Quran. It's about 600 pages. It is memorized by millions of people around the world. It's
  217. memorized by thousands of people in Dallas. If you're scared, oof. Thousands of Thousands of people that
  218. memorized the Quran word for word here in Dallas, Texas, right? That's or maybe No, we got thousands. I think we got thousands. We got a lot of a lot of
  219. schools here. Um, I shouldn't have said that, right? That's good.
  220. But, um But, the point being is that we have that uniformity, right? That's maintained by the recitation of the
  221. Quran. However, there's a clear understanding that the interpretation of the Quran is in the life of the Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him.
  222. So, for example, if you were to take a verse of the Quran and say the Quran encourages domestic violence. It tells you to beat your wives.
  223. But, then the wife of the Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him says that he never hit a woman or a servant or a child.
  224. The interpretation of the Quran in Islamic theology is the Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him because if you want to mistranslate something, if
  225. you want to take a word or take a verse out of context, I don't care if you're reading Harry Potter, right? I don't care what you're reading.
  226. You could turn it into a violent scripture. So, the interpretation of the Quran starts with the way that it was practiced by the Prophet and his
  227. companions and then then it goes to scholarship and language and and there are certainly verses of the Quran that have to be read in context just like any
  228. book and any scripture so that they do not beat so that they are not hijacked by people that either are
  229. to be made extreme through it or people that are to try to portray the faith as extreme. So, the Quran is sacred to us. It is the word of God. It's the speech
  230. of God to us. Um but there's context, there's interpretation, but we also have principles that govern the
  231. interpretation so that that uniformity is still maintained. I think that's one of the things that we we take pride in as people praying the same way and
  232. reciting the Quran all over the world in different contexts and and have been doing so for over a millennia. How common would the understanding be
  233. that Muhammad is his life is actually sort of the way in which you interpret the rest of it. I don't know
  234. that I've heard anyone say it like that before. So, this is where um
  235. 90 90% Usually when you hear Sunni Shia, you're thinking about Iraq or Iran because that's in the geopolitical terminology, that's when it starts to
  236. come about. Um but the vast majority of Muslims around the world are Sunni, which means Sunnah, which is the life of the prophet, the way of the prophet,
  237. peace be upon him. What that means is that his life and his words are authoritative. They they have they carry authority and they they are the first
  238. place to go to in interpreting the Quran. Um otherwise, the interpretation is not governed by any uh by by any uh
  239. anything that is divine itself. And so, we believe that the prophets spoke in a way that was divine and they acted in a way that was divine. So, every prophet
  240. was infallible in Islam. So, the prophets lived the message in the best way and so, you look to them first. And then you have differences and
  241. obviously evolving contexts and sometimes where some texts might not be appliable uh applicable. So, I I that we try to have a balance
  242. between the letter and the spirit of the law. You know, try to maintain both. And certainly benefit from the wisdom of other texts, the wisdom of other
  243. scholars, the wisdom we we we take from uh stories of the Old Testament and stories of the prophets that came before. But then the authority What is
  244. the final authority, if you will? That's That's where it it becomes that way. I'm interested to know what David's going to say here because when I listen
  245. to you talk about interpreting through the prophet, I mean, I think for for Christians,
  246. where we most often, almost every time, disagree is not what Jesus said or did.
  247. It's all the other stuff. And as a as a What Chris, what do you mean by all
  248. the other stuff? Yeah, what What stuff are you talking about? Well, for example, like letters of Paul, right? Where
  249. Paul as a as a I mean, say a prophet, um an apostle was planting churches all over the place. And then when those churches
  250. would run into trouble or they didn't understand something or someone would ask a question, then they would write to him and then he would write them back.
  251. And so his letters, in case that's not commonly understood, he's answering a specific group of people in a specific place about a specific question or
  252. questions. But what often happens is that specific answer for those people is then extrapolated to everyone in all time,
  253. everywhere. And it's often where it flies in the face of perhaps what we see about Jesus's kind of radical inclusion,
  254. right? He always did the stuff that people didn't like. And we naturally, kind of our human nature,
  255. is to begin to take what is very broad and narrow it. And most of the time, I think if you look back in the way that different
  256. denominational groups have split over time, it's often about theology that roots itself in not the Gospels.
  257. And I often will in Bible studies encourage people to say, "Okay, so you read that say in an Old Testament book or in a New
  258. Testament letter, what do you think based on how Jesus lived that the answer might be?"
  259. And it's that step of interpreting through the prophet or through Christ that I don't see happen as often as I wish.
  260. Can I if I if I may here, this is something that reading into a lot of times we try to read into scripture what's not there, but we want
  261. it to be there so badly that we will twist concepts so that it can so that we can somehow validate our own approaches and our our
  262. um our intentions. And that's very dangerous when you're reading scripture that you either look
  263. solely for inspiration when you want to. So, the the Holy Scripture turns into uh you know, a a website of quotes. So, I'm looking for a good quote for my
  264. wedding card. I'm looking for a good quote on word searches. Keyword searches and stuff like which which now that there is not for that, there's not for
  265. the you know, you can you can literally do that. So, I'm looking for a verse on this right now. But, it's not it's just
  266. to give me some sort of inspiration right now or to make me feel good about my situation or to quote at somebody. So, rather than religion being a tool or
  267. scripture being a tool that humbles me and then instructs me, I abuse it to instruct or judge or throw at somebody
  268. um without living it at all. The most beautiful description of the Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, that that I found, and it's challenging, is that his
  269. wife was asked after he passed away, she said, "How would you describe him?" If you could describe him in one sentence.
  270. And she said he was a walking Quran. Mhm. That's how she described him. He was a walking Quran. To me, that's beautiful
  271. because a lot of times, we know this as clergy. There's that great play that was at the that was at um I forgot I think it was called The
  272. Christians, actually. It was about a clergy man. You guys know it? theater center, yeah. So, the the the
  273. departure, once you're in the public space, especially as clergy, um you in in in the process of preaching,
  274. it's very easy to fall into hypocrisy and very easy to have a different life at home and be perceived in such a different way by by your family and by
  275. those who see you frequently. And I think that's across the board for for clergy or public figures as a whole.
  276. So, hearing his wife describe him as a walking Quran, that means that he practiced everything that he preached. And to me, that is the ultimate goal.
  277. Is that this is the standard. This is perfection. This is where I need to get to, whether it's in my family life, in my social life, in community life. And
  278. there's sometimes where you read the stories of these sages and you say, "Well, I can't get there." And sometimes it's actually discouraging. Like these
  279. stories of selflessness and sacrifice and mercy and compassion that is so far beyond anything that I've ever been able to strive for. So, sometimes
  280. it's like, "Well, that was them." And so, I'm you know, I'm not going to even try to do what's in my capacity. For me, the way I read that is this is
  281. the standard. This is what I need to try to attain. This is what I need to try to get to. Though I never will be I never will be Christ. I never will be
  282. Muhammad. I never will be Moses. I can try to be those people. I can try to be those men and I can try my best to live up to what they did. Um and so, the
  283. scripture, the text has to challenge me to get better, not be used by me to make me complacent with my situation or
  284. worse to for for nefarious you know, for nefarious aims. Um I'll be a little contrarian.
  285. Um because I think this is a distinction. First of all, I to talk about
  286. Bible study here at St. Michael is to you have to recognize the history of superb Bible teaching that's taken place in this church. That's the first thing
  287. of which Chris is a discipline which Chris carries forward in in splendid ways. So I I want to say that. I also should say which I should
  288. have said at the beginning which is to on on Omar's behalf and on my own to thank you all for your hospitality and having us here tonight.
  289. Certainly better parking here than I get at Temple Emanuel. So I I I get the trope
  290. Jesus Muhammad Moses, but I think to a Jew it doesn't really ring true. Right. Um for a couple reasons. First Judaism for Judaism classically the
  291. incarnation of God is in the word. And everyone after that is a teacher or interpreter of the word.
  292. I don't walk around telling our religious school kids to emulate Moses. Cuz Moses does some stuff I don't want them to emulate.
  293. I don't really think frankly the Bible is a book for children. We need to filter it very clearly and closely whether it's 5% or 2 and 1/2% or
  294. whatever it might be. I I knew that one would get you. Yeah. No, it's I'll never forget it. That's okay. No, so
  295. But Fine, it was fine. No, but no, but part but but this is but this is to the point that
  296. not and I'll I'll only speak for the Hebrew Bible, which is really the only one I know. Um
  297. it is not it would be a mistake to look at every verse of that document and and assume it to be prescriptive. Right? When you cite what one army did
  298. to another army, which would go into the 5 and 1/2%? Have I mentioned that? Which would go in which which would go into the 5 and 1/2%? That's not there as a
  299. prescription. It's there as a description through certain human eyes of something that took place, you know, alongside some
  300. river between two warring armies. Um I I similarly do not read every verse of Moses as something that says emulate what's happening in this verse. Some
  301. verses I do, right? Moses is certainly revered in the tradition, particularly for his humility. And so when we talk to kids about
  302. humility, we talk about Moses as a model of humility. But I think the idea that the best way to understand the word is how it was
  303. enacted by X figure is probably not a Jewish idea. Um it lends itself to a certain kind of hagiography, which I think Judaism
  304. resists. Um and I believe so so that I So now to go back to Amy's question,
  305. if you were to Let's say that each of these traditions has a range from and I'm not using fundamentalist as a dirty word here. I'm
  306. using it as sort of meaning the literalist end of the spectrum of interpretation, right? So let's say each of our traditions has a fundamentalist
  307. end of the spectrum, people who read the the sacred writ with a particular literalist um frame, and then a more metaphoric
  308. interpretive liberal reading, let's call it, okay? Without attaching any contemporary meanings to those words. Um the In Judaism, even the most
  309. fundamentalist reader, okay? If you go into the most traditional academy of Jewish study, And you look at a page of scripture that
  310. they're studying. Literally, what you will see is in the center of the page a rectangle
  311. that might have six or eight lines of scripture. And then it is completely surrounded on all four sides by commentary.
  312. If you can see that picture in your mind, that is how Jews read scripture. That it begins with divine revelation. And then it is not only accessible to,
  313. but it depends upon human interpretation to reincarnate what is already incarnate in the word
  314. itself. So, that's why I would think in general, I'm not saying that Judaism doesn't have its instances of hagiography and holding
  315. up people as the best and brightest um embodiment of sacred call. But in general, um we're going to look to the
  316. word and the application of our own wisdom and the wisdom of the tradition to the word more than we're going to look to specific individuals as the
  317. embodiment of the word. Thank you. Good night. Do we have to go to the next question? No, we don't. First of all, let me apologize for that
  318. 5 and 1/2 Reminds me of uh Romney's uh what was it? 48% moment or So.
  319. Um I I would This is a This is actually one of the things that that I actually
  320. deeply enjoy about our discussion is if if we're going to talk about it from a purely theological perspective. So, how do we reckon with this? I think that
  321. every generation is going to be challenged with how much access, how much unique access do you have to text that previous generations did not. So,
  322. what emphasis do we place on consensus? Um so, for me, um it you know, looking at ev- looking at
  323. every Muslim as capable of accessing the text and deriving their own interpretations is very dangerous. I'm not saying that
  324. suggesting Yeah, no, I got you. Right, right. So, there has to be a layer. Now, in Islam, we don't have the hierarchy within the,
  325. you know, as a similar to to to both of the the traditions up here. Um that we don't have a hierarchy
  326. beyond the prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him. So, scholars are judged by the Sunnah, by the practice of the prophet, not vice versa. So, if Islamic
  327. scholar comes and says, "I've discovered something that for 1,400 years hasn't been there, and this is what it's all it's meant all
  328. along, and nobody else got it right." Then, we're not going to take that scholar very seriously. However, context evolve, and we also, and I'll say this,
  329. just as we look to the past, and this is a really difficult thing for people to swallow sometimes.
  330. We love to judge the past, and to think that everything and everyone in the past was behind us, and that we we somehow represent this epitome or or the most
  331. refined version of morality now in the 21st century here in the United States. Give me a break. Mhm. Seriously, give me a break.
  332. I mean, there's a saying that that that if I was in I got to get this right cuz I always mix up the two terms, that I was a conservative 20 years ago,
  333. and today I'm a liberal, and I have not changed a single one of my views. Or now, cuz it's the opposite. I was a liberal 20 years ago, and today I'm a
  334. conservative, and I haven't changed a single one of my views. So, everything is changing. The way we view morality is changing. The way we view our social
  335. contexts are constantly evolving. But, can we look back and say everybody in the past had it wrong on this and this and this and that. Now, there are some
  336. things that we can say that for sure. All right. But then just in general the the lenses and how we perceive society. And I'll
  337. give you um you know, when we're talking about the prophets in particular,
  338. the prophets of God. So, in Islam we we would remove any attachment of immorality to the prophets and we would ascribe that to human innovation.
  339. That these were men that came afterwards that ascribed immoralities to the prophets as opposed to immoralities that the prophets themselves uh committed.
  340. And I think this is where it gets tricky because if you're And And it's a question that we have to wrestle with. Old Testament, New Testament, the God of
  341. Judaism, the God of Christianity, the God of Islam. We started off this discussion by saying it's the same God. While laws changed and prescriptions
  342. changed, the very nature and essence of God who legislated and who revealed was the same God.
  343. And so, God was not was never immoral. God was never cruel. God was always merciful. God was always most gracious and compassionate and just. And so,
  344. legislation that we look back on or scripture that we look back on and we go, either we're misunderstanding it or
  345. misapplying it or we can I mean, I can say confidently that there are many things that are ascribed to many to to the prophets
  346. that I reject as a believer of those prophets and I'm offended on their behalf. When I when I hear certain things
  347. ascribed to the prophets of the past. So, to to So, there's a there's an there's there's truth to what you're saying uh in the sense that
  348. it's not Well, I I I would just push back. It's not the prophets themselves. It's those that interpreted what they wanted to of the
  349. prophets. And just like with what you had mentioned, we usually get into trouble with the those that came afterwards. In
  350. Islam, we usually get stuck with what some jurist in 9th century Baghdad Right. All right. That's where we usually get stuck.
  351. Because we want to honor that jurist cuz he was great in many ways, but then it's like you see that sentence in his book and you're like, "Ah,
  352. can I can we just take that out? Can I you know, well we don't use white out anymore. We just delete, you know? Um, but how do we take that out? So, that's
  353. where we get stuck as well usually. a I have a question. What about the um What about the potential for an arc of moral growth of one of these figures
  354. over time? Is that anathema or is that possible? I wanted to follow up sort of on that idea of immorality. It There was Where's
  355. their humanity? A prophetic like the problems that they encounter or the mistakes that they make as
  356. they're human. Rather than taking that away as something that was put on them later. Did I hear that right?
  357. I think so. In Islam we our our definition of infallibility to the prophets is that they were incapable of major sin
  358. or of of of ascribing to God um a partner. So, they were capable of mistakes, of slip-ups, of minor sin, but they were
  359. not capable of major sin. So, that's where that's where the Islamic definition of prophets or how we categorize
  360. their mistakes as. And you got to understand that sometimes when I say I believe in Christ or I believe in Moses or I believe in
  361. Abraham, that does not mean that as a Muslim I believe in every story about Christ, Abraham, or Moses, peace be upon them all that is found within
  362. Judaism and Christianity. And let's face it that within Christianity and Judaism, right? There is there are different interpretations
  363. of who the who these men were and who these people were. And so, um you know, I'm I'm I think I'm I'm
  364. talking too much now, but I'm going to just I would just say that that's where it still goes to the men that told us the stories of those prophets
  365. who compiled those stories of those prophets and which stories made it through and then how are those stories that were told by men interpreted by
  366. other men that then reached us. And so that's where that's where I would I would say that we have to we have to be as
  367. critical of that or we have to start there before we go to the prophets themselves and say, "Hey, you know, that that's something that um
  368. that I reject with the prophet himself. You don't agree. So a challenge. Yes. You you were the first one to
  369. you guys put me in the middle for a reason. Yeah, hi. Hi, that was the reason.
  370. But but um isn't that a form of sanitizing? You would you would use the word you would talk about sanitizing before in
  371. terms of you know, that we we whitewash the the the prophetic injustice anger of these figures. Isn't it a form of sanitizing to say that if there's
  372. anything uncomfortable that's attributed to the prophet, I'm going to say the problem is in the attribution, not in the prophet. Isn't
  373. that in and of itself a form of sanitizing? That's a good question and I and I would say that it would be sanitizing if before I look to the
  374. attribution, I look to what I like and don't like and then I toss it out or accept it on that basis. But I will scrutinize every attribution.
  375. Yeah. So in Islam, we have you know, we have a very strict method of scrutinizing Hadiths uh which are sayings of the prophet
  376. Muhammad, peace be upon him. There are some Hadiths that are so beautiful, but they're not authentic from an Islamic perspective. Like if I'm true to the
  377. signs of Hadith and I'm just like, "I wish it was authentic cuz I love it and I love this attribution and I love this story, but it's not it's not something I
  378. can ascribe." So as a Muslim, I start from that place. Got it. Is the attribution authentic or not? If it is, then what's the context?
  379. I want to understand the context because I I cannot believe that a man who was used as a vehicle of God's revelation himself
  380. lived an immoral life. So I need to I need to look at that. I need to look at the attribution, then then look at the incident itself if I've determined that
  381. the attribution is authentic, then what is it that took place and how do I how do I grapple with that particular incident? What I find interesting about
  382. this is that for for Christianity, the the root idea is God's redemptive work in the world, right? And the redemption
  383. is a change. And so, mistakes and problems aren't a problem because it's just true. And we're all in that same boat
  384. together, and it's I might steal David's word, that arc, that redemptive work over time, not necessarily just a single individual,
  385. although yes, there's that too, but it's also as a world. Like the idea of a kingdom of heaven is not this other thing, but it's something we work toward
  386. now, Right. that we are working we are redemptive agents in the world and are called to spread that
  387. that redemptive truth of God. And so, to say that even our prophets weren't part of that work to me kind of
  388. undermines, I think, what the Christian kind of root of redemption really is. So, it goes to the definition of a prophet in Islam, and then it goes to
  389. the definition of what we classify as a major sin. So, the story of Adam and Eve is the story of mankind.
  390. That Adam, who's a prophet, made a mistake. So, the major sin here, when I when I classify major sin, that that, you know,
  391. I'm I'm talking about murder. I'm talking about the, you know, I'm talking about a different category There's a very specific category of major sin in
  392. Islam, but redemption would occur uh all of the prophets, with all of the uh stories of great people, and and there are stories of redemption that are
  393. told by the prophets themselves. So, the the work of God, the entire the entire concept of salvation in Islam is that you do your best, but your God
  394. is most compassionate, most merciful. And so, so long as he finds you on the day of judgment having tried your best to attain that mercy, then his mercy
  395. will will overcome your shortcomings. And so, there's a saying of the Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, that no one enters paradise by virtue of their good
  396. deeds, but instead by the mercy of God. That does not mean free pass, you don't have to do anything. That means you will do your best, you will strive, but you
  397. will fall short because you were created in a way that you you are meant to fall short, but it is ultimately the mercy and the redemption of God that will
  398. overwhelm you and enter you into paradise. But that doesn't mean My point is that the vehicles of God's revelation, the prophets themselves, and
  399. again, this would take a lot of deconstruction. Sure. Because who tells us the stories of Christ? Which stories of Christ are
  400. authentic from a historical perspective? If we were to take a step back and judge it from a purely objective perspective, whose story of Christ wins and becomes
  401. mainstream? Whose story of Moses wins and becomes mainstream? There are the the methods of extraction are different as well amongst ourselves.
  402. And so, with that, there are certain stories that maybe you're thinking of when I say that you're going, "Uh." So, I'll give you an example. Noah.
  403. Well, give me the story. That he was naked and drunk on the beach. We have So, so, so, that We don't
  404. read that part in church. So, so, that that attribution from an Islamic perspective, we don't have that attribution in our text of Noah. Ah,
  405. there you go. So, what would make your attribution more historically accurate than my attribution to Noah? Do you understand what I'm saying here?
  406. It's more fun. It's more fun. And I would I would you know I was I was talking to a young Muslim the other day.
  407. It was talk you know we have the story of sacrifice the sacrifice of Abraham that Abraham sacrificing his son. Now Jews say it's Isaac Muslims say it's
  408. Ishmael. But how could a man sacrifice his son? How could God
  409. command a man to sacrifice his son? And the Islamic answer to that is that Abraham saw a dream that he interpreted that way.
  410. But that that was not God never commanded him explicitly go slaughter your son. And that's where the miracle took place and it was a ram rather than
  411. his son. So we don't attribute immorality to the prophets. Mistakes they made mistakes but those mistakes would not compromise
  412. the integrity of the message that they had. And that's where the that's where the difference lies I think.
  413. All right I'm going to pull us back a little bit from the wonderful text great.
  414. door that I opened. Not typical of a woman. I wish I wish my husband was here. It's like overhearing geeky theology.
  415. And I want to step back a little bit in some of this the practicalities. In all traditions head covering is a part. What does that mean? Why is there head
  416. covering in the various forms that it exists within each of the religions for men and for women? And is it only for it times of worship throughout the culture?
  417. What is the role of head covering? I think Christianity it is absolutely about humility before God. No question.
  418. I mean how many of you grew up I I grew up Catholic and I definitely saw my grandmother cover her head when we went to church. No
  419. question. You would not go into a church without a scarf or they kind of look like doilies. I don't
  420. know whatever it is. were But certainly out of humility Humility. For being in God's presence.
  421. Okay. You ever Isn't it ironic the difference between how a Muslim woman who covers her head is perceived and a nun? Mhm.
  422. That has nothing to do with the media. That has nothing to do with conditioning or engineering. So, um I would Look, here's the thing. In
  423. our tradition, and and Muslims loved being asked about their faith and not told about their faith. Mhm. Like, usually here's how an interaction
  424. Inter-faith dialogue for me usually is this. Walking out of Walmart, and then it's gone, you know? It's like, okay, well, we could have had an
  425. exchange. That's called inter-faith monologue. That Yeah.
  426. I have those like six times a week. Um
  427. There are Muslim women that are here today that cover their heads. Ask a Muslim woman how she feels about her head covering.
  428. And if anyone forced it upon her. Or if it was a choice that she made at some point in her life as a means of devotion and humility
  429. before God. Uh and I guarantee you that you'll be surprised by the answer. So, you have I'm actually inviting you all the sister I see a few sisters here.
  430. You're You're good with being asked about your hijab and the story of your hijab. Okay, good. You're all good with that. So, you may ask them that
  431. question. Don't ask me that question. And ask Ask those sisters because when they decided to cover their heads and why they decided to cover their
  432. heads. It is in in in in this America in 2018, um hats off literally to the Muslim women
  433. in in in this country that insist on their Americanness and insist on their identity because what they are doing is an act of resistance to bigotry.
  434. Because they're insisting that there is no That is an insistence that no, I will be an accomplished
  435. woman. I will and and whatever that accomplishment looks like and I will insist on my religious identity. And it is just as oppressive to force a
  436. woman to take her head covering off than to force her to put it on. So, uh when you see France and you see a woman on the beach,
  437. you know, who's wearing the burkini. God forbid a woman on the beach wearing a a swimsuit that covers her entire body and her head because she wants to enjoy the
  438. beach, but she also wants to abide by her religious obligations. And you've got police officers going to the beach and humiliating that woman and
  439. stripping, you know, stripping her of that of that of of her iden- identifying cloth. And then doing that in the name of
  440. secularism and modernity and progress. That's the point. We need to look to what we need to accuse our own our own lenses and our own constructs. And I'll
  441. let Muslim women speak for themselves as to why they chose to cover and why they what what they feel about that obligation. Thank you.
  442. Humility and modesty. Um a question I other thing I'd throw in is because you can do and I I assume you could do
  443. it in other traditions also. Certainly in Judaism you could, if you wanted to be if you wanted to prejudge, you could
  444. look on a bus in Israel and based on the kind of whether it's woven, whether it's velvet, how big or how small, you could like people who really know
  445. Israeli sociology could actually tell you a lot about a person, right? In other words, and and again, it's a prejudgment, but there's head covering
  446. and then it it get like as we said from the very beginning, it's also sometimes used as a sociological marker. That's great.
  447. Well, speaking of sociological markers, um talk about interfaith marriage. What does each religion say about it?
  448. Repeat the question. Interfaith marriage. What does each religion say or teach about interfaith marriage?
  449. Omar. I just spoke for like 15 minutes and you guys gave one word answers so
  450. It's it's a lot harder to say something with just a few words, don't you think? Um, so
  451. Is the question what what our traditions teach about interfaith marriage? say about it.
  452. want to point out it's not the rabbi who answered a question with a question. I just want to point that out.
  453. I think it's I think it's a sense of my guess is behind the question having not written it is the sense of is it is it acceptable? Is it okay?
  454. in in um, traditional Jewish law it's prohibited. Okay. In contemporary Jewish practice, um,
  455. there are many rabbi uh, specifically rabbis of my denomination who would officiate. You would never
  456. find an Orthodox rabbi officiating interfaith wedding. Um, you would actually and and a conservative currently the current regulation of the
  457. um, conservative rabbinic organization is that if a conservative rabbi officiates at an interfaith wedding they're expelled from the organization.
  458. So it's so it's a strong traditional prohibition in the more um, progressive and liberal denominations that um, there are plenty of rabbis who do officiate.
  459. I would certainly say that there isn't explicit te- This is one of those moments where I cannot speak for Christianity. Um,
  460. Right. I think that in most cases individual clerics have some flexibility on how they approach this.
  461. Um most of the time marriage is considered kind of in that pastoral category. Um certainly as Anglicans or as
  462. Episcopalians and I would say probably Orthodox or Romans, um it is sacramental. And when a sacrament
  463. when a sacramental moment is shared that is a that is shared among people who believe in that sacramental experience.
  464. Um however, there is flexibility in that. I think it depends on a personal in our tradition, we are not
  465. compelled to marry anybody. Um I have declined multiple couples just because, you know, God knows they're not supposed
  466. to be married. Wow. Sorry. Damn. Um
  467. I know. Woo. So, Okay. It It's different. I mean, I would say that
  468. that we have a a responsibility for to baptize someone who wishes to be baptized. That we have a responsibility to bury someone who needs to be buried.
  469. That those are those are responsibilities that we share. But things like marriage is I think a
  470. a reforming of family and starting something new. And most I would say most Christian
  471. clergy would really want to encourage a Christian identity in that new family. Um even if perhaps someone did not come
  472. out of a Christian tradition, that would still be very strongly encouraged. For sure. So, um within the Muslim community
  473. to the preservation of identity the Quran was revealed over 23 years. So, the way we look at the the Quran was not revealed in one shot, but rather
  474. between the age of 40 and 63 of the Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him. And so, it was dealing with evolving context as well.
  475. Um when Muslims were in Mecca, which is the earlier part of the revelation, the first 13 years, there was an absolute prohibition on interfaith marriages. So,
  476. Muslim men and Muslim women uh could not marry um non-Muslim men or non-Muslim women. And
  477. there was also a prohibition on eating meat slaughtered by anyone that was not Muslim. So, those are sacrifices obviously a big part of the Abrahamic
  478. story. So, the the sacrifices of others were it was not accepted. When the Muslims moved to Medina, when the Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him,
  479. moved to Medina, there was a uh vibrant Jewish community. And actually, the first constitution in the world, according to some historians, was
  480. the constitution of Medina. You could actually look it up where Muslims and Jews agreed upon certain obligations to one another and certain things to each
  481. other. At that point, there was a verse that was revealed in the Quran um
  482. that relaxed the prohibition for men, Muslim men, marrying Jewish or Christian women. And relaxed or or did away with the
  483. prohibition of eating sacrifice, eating the meat of Christians and Jews. And that was in that new interaction that was taking place. So, certainly, even
  484. with that relaxation of prohibition on Muslim men being able now to marry Jewish women and and Christian women, it still was not encouraged. It was
  485. discouraged actually very early on in the in the um in an effort to preserve the Islamic identity within the marriage. But, when it comes to food,
  486. thankfully, I can eat kosher. Yeah.
  487. And we got some really good kosher food in Dallas. It's better in New Orleans where I used to hang out with Rabbi Louie, but
  488. Muslims can eat halal and they can eat kosher, so they can eat meat that's slaughtered by Christians and Jews as well as
  489. Muslims. And that got me a little hungry. And we're we're having dinner after this.
  490. Is there one requirement to be your faith? Is there one requirement? Or can you think of
  491. a requirement to be your faith tradition? Are we doing the conversion right now?
  492. Yeah, in our tradition, it is the testimony of faith, which is la ilaha illallah Muhammadur Rasulullah, that I bear witness that
  493. there is only one God worthy of worship and unconditional obedience and that Muhammad is final messenger. And that statement affirms six articles of faith,
  494. which is belief in one God and and monotheism, belief in the messengers and prophets, belief in the scriptures, belief in the angels, belief in the day
  495. of judgment, and belief in divine decree and predestination. So, that's those are the six pillars of faith that are implied in the statement.
  496. But it's fun to make someone think when they're about to become Muslim that we're going to also baptize them. We're going to we we've got a pool in the back
  497. of the mosque. So, they kind of their eyes get really wide. Also, when someone becomes Muslim, the way that Muslims celebrate
  498. is they say Allahu Akbar. And if you haven't warned the person before they become Muslim that everybody in the mosque is about to chant Allahu
  499. Akbar, and they've been watching certain news channels, they get really scared. So, that's always
  500. I always try to make it a point to explain like that's how they're going to celebrate. It doesn't mean they're going to kill you. It means they're about to
  501. come hug you. So, Christianity is definitely an orthodoxy.
  502. Um so it is grounded in right belief. And the belief being that God's redemptive work in the world was made complete through the incarnation of
  503. Christ. And that our move toward redemption and salvation is through the belief in Christ. And the rest of it is details that people need to feel
  504. good. Um but that is that's the common starting place. Um I think Judaism is distinguished here also
  505. uh tends to put plenty of emphasis on deed as well as on creed. If you wanted to look historically, um the Jews are a people
  506. before they get to Mount Sinai. So they're actually identified and behaving as a people before they enter into the formal Sinaitic covenant. Um
  507. in general, what you end up with in later rabbinic Judaism is sort of two core ideas. Um what's called ol hamalkhut and ol hamitzvot. Ol hamalkhut
  508. is the yoke y o k e of God's sovereignty. And ol hamitzvot is the yoke of the commandments. And that one way or another, there has to be um
  509. participation in the covenant in both of those dimensions. So that it's uh it is it is both about accepting a notion of one God in all the
  510. world as well as accepting in some interpretation um a life of mitzvot, of living according to covenant and commandment.
  511. I got to share with you the coolest Muslim t-shirt that's out there. There actually there's actually a t-shirt I cannot be Muslim if I don't
  512. believe in Jesus. Mhm. It's actually a t-shirt that that some people wear. So it's pretty cool. Wow, that's great. That's great.
  513. So another question um from our gathering tonight, what is your biggest fear as it relates to your faith in Dallas and worldwide. Wow.
  514. Maybe let's focus on Dallas. What is your greatest fear um right now and where we are?
  515. Well, we're the only community Well, we're the only uh Muslim community in America that regularly has white supremacist groups in front of our
  516. mosques with long rifles. Mhm. That's pretty scary. That is scary. Jeez. And it's it's routine. It's routine in our community. There's no
  517. other Texas has 10% of the country's hate groups. We have a lot of hate in Texas. We have a lot of hate in Dallas. And we have had
  518. a lot of Islamophobia in Dallas. And we have had my she turned eight last week. My
  519. 8-year-old daughter all you know, she asked me the question. She said, "If Donald Trump becomes president, are we going to be killed?"
  520. And so what children are ingesting and internalizing I'd like to think that
  521. and this is I think part of all of our faiths that we we we should work with optimism. That is as a person who believes in God, I I can't afford to be
  522. pessimistic. We're playing the long game. If we're if we're preaching inclusivity, we're preaching love and mercy and tolerance and justice and
  523. these ideals that for most people um even if they are lived they are not part of the mission of those people. If
  524. as people of clergy of faith, people who believe in God and people who want to make Dallas a more loving city
  525. we have to be willing or we have to believe that we're going to give our children a fighting chance to be able to realize that. I don't
  526. think that Dr. King uh I don't think that Dr. King really believed that he would achieve
  527. everything that he dreamed of in his own lifetime. So, for me this is this is pretty bad. And with a lot of otherizing,
  528. Dr. Greg Robinson, who's the foremost scholar on Japanese internment in the United States, he he has a book by order of the president in which he talks about
  529. how the Japanese, in particular, were able to be treated that way as opposed to Europeans that came from countries that were also hostile to the
  530. United States. And prevailing racist attitudes allowed for racist policy. Allowed for discriminatory policy. What
  531. that means is that it was so it was it was easier to otherize the Japanese-Americans than it was the German-American or the Italian-American
  532. or whatever it may be. It was easier to otherize them. So, as a Muslim, um
  533. look, it's in our situation, it is a statistical fact that Muslims do not commit most acts of terrorism,
  534. domestically or globally. It's statistical. You can't argue with it. It's objective research data that Muslims do not kill more than other
  535. faith groups and that Muslims do not commit most terrorist acts or mass shootings in the United States. However, the way that a San Bernardino is treated
  536. as opposed to a Las Vegas, Mhm. Mhm. puts us in a situation in which we feel like at times we can't win. Because we have to defend every lunatic
  537. that takes one life or 16 lives, whereas other groups of people are given a a pass even when a person may be claiming their faith or
  538. belong to their their their their group and could murder 60 people without anyone facing any repercussions for that. And our children have to bear the
  539. burden of that. And if you think about how unjust that is, I wrote an article yesterday that went up in CNN on CNN um and and it's and and it was I am not
  540. your American Muslim. And I'm and and to be honest with you, I started off with the last detainee at the airport in DFW was Jesus. His name
  541. was Jesus. He was a 33-year-old Iraqi man who served the US military and was named Issa, which means Jesus, and had a had a broken pelvis because of an attack
  542. that he suffered from serving the United States Army and we held him at DFW and he almost died out of pain back there because of the Muslim ban 1 year ago.
  543. What does that say about our Christianity? What does it say about our patriotism? What does that say about everything that we claim to hold near
  544. and dear? And so it's a losing battle if in order for a Muslim to be dignified, they have to be American with a capital A, a patriot with a capital P, a
  545. democrat with a capital D, or a republican with a capital R. We're we're just not willing to live up to those standards
  546. because you don't have to like me, but you have to respect me. You you could hate the Quran, but you've got to treat me in accordance with the Constitution.
  547. And so we will insist on our rights and I pray that we're able to form I am optimistic because I do think that we're forming coalitions
  548. now that we would not have formed in our complacency that we would not have formed if if if the the myth of a post-racial America
  549. continued to persist in the media and that that that idea that we're we've moved beyond all of our rifts and discrimination
  550. was able to survive. So I think now the the the it's it's code red, it's it's raised, we're alert, and hopefully
  551. that radical hatred is forcing radical love. And so I'm optimistic that we'll form coalitions and friendships and relationships that hopefully will give
  552. our children a better chance to do away with those divisions. Thank you. Thank you.
  553. Here in Dallas, I think that the most dangerous thing for us is that this is a segregated city. Um I've lived in
  554. five major cities and I've not lived in a place that is so separated. Um and I think the separation is maybe
  555. not bad for the reason you might think. It's It's exposure. And it's simply just knowing other people. Um it It is so easy for me
  556. in my world of work and school and grocery stores and whatever to really only see people who look like me and who might believe like me. Way
  557. too easy. And when that is the case then the natural exposure that we have to people who just aren't like us is so low
  558. that we can't otherize. And in places where segregation where there is a big mix you just you kind of have to learn about
  559. other people. Just cuz they're around you, right? You're working with them, you're shopping with them, you're in school with them, and you figure out
  560. that they're just people. And that that I think for Dallas is is probably the hard the biggest hurdle that we have because geography and
  561. physical division is really difficult to get over, really difficult. Um nationally, perhaps I think that there is no way to read the story of Christ as
  562. a story that is not about incredible lavish abundance, abundance always. And yet, I think that especially Christian groups
  563. have not been living abundantly for a while. And when we guard ourselves and are concerned about lack
  564. and try to shore up what we have to not lose any of it, we're not actually living faithfully.
  565. And that kind of the abundance of God is so tangible and real that if we don't claim that back, that confidence and that courage and
  566. that love that abundance provides and and empowers us to be, we're not going to grow. We're not going to be a force for
  567. good. We're not going to be able to claim our authority for the good that God calls us to be in the world. And I think that's that Christian groups,
  568. particularly in America, have have that reckoning that is coming a lot faster than we wish it were.
  569. Um I have a few worries. First is I I sort of believe that
  570. anti-Semitism is a constant. I believe that in some periods and places it's more submerged, which I'm very happy for. Um but and I'm
  571. really not a sort of Anti-Semitism is not a primary shaper of my Jewish identity. It is for lots of Jews. It's not a primary shaper of my
  572. and I say that without judgment. It's It's not a the shaper of my identity, but I have an awareness of it. I have a sense of vigilance about it. I don't I
  573. think that we've been um relatively fortunate in Dallas, but I sort of don't really take it for granted. Um and it may sound paradoxical, but the other
  574. thing I'm worried about in the sociological category is assimilation. That um Jewish achievement and Jewish
  575. integration gets so cushy that we lose track of who we are. Um as a faith community, as an historic community, as a distinguished uh and
  576. distinctive community. So, I worry about that, and I see that as a big part of my responsibility. Um and I'm going now shifting away from the
  577. sociological towards the more um explicitly faith dimension of Jewish identity. I I worry about complacency. Um
  578. I worry that we'll take all the parts that are warm and joyous and connective and self-affirming, which thank God there are deep reservoirs of, um
  579. and neglect our obligation to justice, neglect our obligation to enter into the spaces that are uncomfortable, neglect our obligation to hear the stories that
  580. are uncomfortable, neglect our obligation to see what's broken and to work to be healers of that breach. So, um
  581. I I I worry that we um that we don't rise to the level to which our tradition calls us. Thank you.
  582. Can I get a response for maybe just faith communities in general? Um I think assimilation is an interesting idea to put forward because one of the
  583. things that I grew up in Florida, which a lot of people call, you know, the sixth borough of New York, and I had it God's anteroom. God's anteroom?
  584. That is not wrong. Um So, we used to have bumper stickers that said, "When I am old, I will move to
  585. Michigan and drive slow." Um So, point being though, when I grew up, I knew I had lots of Jewish friends, and
  586. every Saturday morning they would trot off to Jew school, right? And they would learn how to speak and read Hebrew, they would learn stories, they
  587. My friends of mine who were raised in Jewish families did not make the assumption that they would figure out how to be Jewish
  588. unless they were taught by their church, right? By the synagogue or their school or their community center. And I think that one of the differences that
  589. Christian groups have to embrace is our culture is not Christian, right? It is It is Uh I mean, nominally there's some words
  590. that perhaps culture uses that have Christian roots or But you know, America was founded to be this place of diversity, right? And of equality. And
  591. we have slowly, almost so slowly that we don't even like to admit it, become a place where we still think that people might become
  592. Christian just by osmosis of being in America. Not true. And it has not been true. And it's really basically not been true for
  593. any person in this room, right? I mean, it has many generations of not being true. And we have yet
  594. most Christian groups have yet to cop to that untruth. And we do not take seriously enough forming people to be Christian in the
  595. way that I think my friends up here, their traditions don't make that assumption because there there is nobody thinks that just by
  596. being in America you're going to learn how to be a good Muslim, right? Everyone say no no. And so we go to a place where that tradition is passed on
  597. and taught and honored and respected in the same way that that anyone who is Jewish does that. And Christians have got to own that more. And that's a
  598. danger because I think as people of faith all of us will lose
  599. if we don't realize the necessity of formation and we just assume it will happen. Thank you. Thank you.
  600. So So believe it or not gentlemen it's after 8:30. I know zoom washed there
  601. goes. So I can't help but end on a wonderful question. I don't know who wrote it. Um it's kind of a circle back to when we
  602. all got together before we came in here. Um and I'm sorry I don't mean to upset. The questions tonight have been fabulous.
  603. There are many many others um that I'm sure we're going to figure out a way to address in communication from this evening.
  604. Um but here is the last question. And I did not write it. See? What is the best priest rabbi and imam walk into a bar joke that you know?
  605. I should qualify that can be shared in a mixed Yes. Yes. In this room. In this room.
  606. So I I told them this earlier. I actually when I pulled into my to the parking lot tonight I googled a rabbi a priest and an imam walk in a
  607. bar. Just cuz I figured you have to know one of them, right? I didn't know any of them. And so here's here's what came up, right? A rabbi a priest and an Imam walk
  608. into a bar. And the bartender looks at them and says, "What is this, a joke?"
  609. I don't have any. You got nothing? I got nothing. Wow.
  610. I have absolutely nothing. So I would I would think that it would be something about um
  611. you know uh something about the Muslim being violent, the Imam hitting someone over the head with a with a bottle, you know.
  612. I think it'd be like something like that, right? Are you sure you don't have one David now? So
  613. yeah, I mean, it's going to be one of the stereotypes, right? Right. Right. But I'm pretty sure it ends with the
  614. Imam being violent. I mean, it's just got to be that way. So the Imam's either going to break the bottle on the bartender's head or or or the or the
  615. priest is going to get it, so. And yet I think we would all agree that often the better conversations for understanding are going to happen in the bars and the
  616. restrooms or around dinner tables than they are going to be in our segregated places of worship on the weekends. And so maybe that could be the
  617. great takeaway is to find ways in our communities to come together around tables, around places where we can engage in conversation and laughter and
  618. laugh AT ONE ANOTHER. I YOU KNOW, HONESTLY I WAS I WAS JUST GOING TO SAY I DON'T DRINK, but I'll but
  619. I'll say this that David has become my favorite coffee uh partner for drinking coffee. So we've we've we've done Java Me Up, and that's Excellent.
  620. best we've done, and I've got to bring you out there as well, so. I love coffee. All right.
  621. We have more in common than you think. That's right. So, real quickly just to end us, I want to say a big word of thanks to Amy for
  622. moderating us tonight. Thank you for all the questions. THANK YOU.
  623. FOR DAVID AND FOR OMAR FOR BEING HERE with us tonight and a thank you to all of you for the women of St. Michael, for everyone who helped put this together.
  624. Um St. Michael is really honored that you were here with us tonight in this sacred space for a sacred conversation and we hope that it does not end here
  625. for you. That perhaps you will stay after for the reception that will be out these doors in our garden cloister, our parlor and all over the place. Um stay
  626. and have conversation. Look around the church and see somebody you don't know and go meet them and go ask them who they are and why do they why are they
  627. here? First of all, what do they believe and maybe make a new friend and perhaps we will all continue this dialogue for good that will begin to change our city
  628. and our world. So, thank you all for being here tonight. Thank you. Thank you.
  629. Thank you so much. Thank you, man. Thank you. I hope the joke didn't go too high.
  630. good. Thank you. I really thank you.

Zum Nachlesen

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